Atheism

Published on December 26th, 2013 | by Rayne

5

Quotes from the mouths of Christians

As you may or may not know, yesterday and this morning I was engaged in a conversation with several Christians. In the interest of finding out what they believed in, I played dumb to their attempts at converting me – a tactic which presented some very disturbing information.

You can find the original transcript of my Facebook interaction here.

C
Anyway if you like I’m happy to meet with you and talk to you more in person about this. (1st request to meet).

This was the first request to meet me in person to have more of a talk around what we were discussing.

Rayne
however torture for pretty much ever for the sin of disobeying god? Murder I get but not adultery (divorce is enough of a punishment it seems) I don’t recall seeing anyone condemning rape or child killing – there were a few stories where child killing was demanded and god sending bears to kill kids. Also lot gave his daughters to the townspeople to rape instead of the angels. I don’t get the no tattoos, eating shellfish – unless those rules aren’t applicable by today’s standards? How does one reconcile those undated rules with the bible being the word of god? Wouldn’t not obeying all the rules outlined in the bible be going against the word of god? Or is more a set of guidelines? How do you read the bible in context?

S
Shekk fish and tattoo ones were directed to Israel only to set them apart to be different from other countries at the time. Child killing falls under killing. Rape falls under both coveting and adultery. When lot gave his daughters (or whoever those girls are. I don’t think they were his daughters) he wasn’t doing the right thing, no one would claim that. As for reading in context, you need to read a large part of it to be able to read it in context. If you only read the Old Testament you won’t see that we are saved by grace. If you don’t read the Old Testament you won’t see what we are saved from, or why we need saving.

G
I was gonna say, Jesus fulfilled all the commands. That’s why we don’t have to follow them. But I don’t totally understand how it works. My hubby does though – mind if I involve D?

Finally somewhat of an answer as to how to read the Bible “in context”. As for G – she’s just following the Bible even though she doesn’t really understand it. Also I’m pretty sure those were Lots daughters.

S
Also – outdated rules vs rules that still apply. Christianity is about our relationship with Jesus and how he has forgiven us. One could very easily say that there are no “rules” as such, with one exception that I’ll get to later. But there are still things that God wants us to do and things he wants us to not do. The relationship that we are to have with Jesus is one of a husband and wife.

The only real “rule” as such is to love Jesus as one would love wife/husband. For example If your husband didn’t want you to cook roast lamb on a Tuesday for reason X (the actual reason is irrelevant) then if you had the deep love that we are called to have for each other and Indeed the love that he has for us, you wouldn’t cook roast lamb on Tuesdays.

This is coming from a Christian man, I wonder if he thinks of his relationship to Jesus as one of “Husband and husband”? Also what defines outdated vs relevant?

I then asked about the definition of adultery:

G
So adultery means any sex outside of marriage, no matter who it is between. That includes rape.

Rayne
So I couldn’t have sex as a lesbian because in this country there is no recognition for same sex marriage however if we got married in New Zealand (because it has same sex marriage) my partner and I could? Does this mean single non married people have to abstain from sex?

G
I’m not sure that example is great, S. I’d be more inclined to use an example like not swearing if it offends someone, purely because of the self-sacrificial love Jesus showed by dying for us. But these things are hard to talk about well over Facebook (it’s hard to gauge tone in writing) so would you like to meet up and chat in person? (2nd time asking to meet).

S
From a Christian point of view sex is indeed only for people inside a marriage relationship. On the same note though, marriage is between man and woman, as God set out at creation. (This comes into a large thing about gender roles, marriage being illustration of God’s relationship with the church etc, and isn’t as simple as just “God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve like some people like to say).

G
Yes, to the single, non-married people (it’s extremely difficult…). In terms of same sex relations, God created man and woman to look after the world in a complementary relationship, with equally important but different roles. That’s where marriage comes from.

Okay so same sex marriage is out because it falls under adultery, same with anyone have sexual relations outside of being married to someone of the opposite sex – no sex for single people than.

J
Rayne, if you can it would be good for you to meet with C if you can. You seem to have a genuine interest and curiosity about the world and Christianity, I think having a conversation that way can make understanding quicker and even more thorough (3rd time asking to meet).

Rayne
I just don’t understand that if god has made me in his image with desires and attractions, how can I be considered a sinner? By some of the more fundamentalist religious people.

G
May I suggest you read Romans chapter 5? http://esv.literalword.com/?q=romans+5

P.S: That verse explains fucking nothing at all.

Rayne
I’m more confused than anything else. You tend to get many different religious people calling you different things quoting different parts of the bible; it’s hard to get a clear and concise answer.

G
Think of a cancer – if left unchecked, it consumes the body. Sin is the same. When left unchecked sin consumed the world. God came in as a (wreaking ball) chemotherapy and surgical treatment. (sorry, couldn’t help it…)

Basically what I can tell is that G is saying that humans have no capacity to police themselves and their behaviour. Granted plenty of people do harmful things but also plenty of people do beneficial things for their fellow humans without the need for a god.

More questions from me:

Rayne
What happens to someone who commits sin? Can you ask for forgiveness and be forgiven?

G
Yes. God forgives anyone who repents, so long as their repentance is true. One thing I should have mentioned is that there is nothing that we can do to be saved. Nothing. Zilch.

That statement lead onto this line of questioning:

Rayne
Though if we can’t be saved – why bother trying not to sin? (Apart from man-made laws). We can try but in the end it’s be futile anyway because as humans we do mess up.

G
I agree. No point trying to work if there’s no way we can ever get there.

Rayne
What stops people from sinning if we’re all screwed anyway?

G
But that’s where Jesus comes in. God didn’t want us to be separated from him. He made us to be with him.

Again apparently the only way we can do beneficial things is if Jesus is around.

G
This world isn’t going to last forever. One day Jesus will return on the clouds, to judge the world and destroy it. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth, and sin will be destroyed. Short answer, no.

Thats. Fucking. Creepy!

G
Yes. He did. Jesus was planned from before the universe was created. Think of it this way.

Rayne
If he could already tell the end result, why create us in the first place, to see if he could? If you know the end result, why bother? It’s like watching the Titanic, we all know the ship sinks

G
You have a child. You love him/her incredibly. But you know that he/she only loves you because they were told to. That’s particularly horrible, so you decide to let your child choose to love you or not. That doesn’t make a stack of sense…

Rayne
But you’d already know if your kid chooses to love you or not.

G
I actually don’t know the answer to that question. There are some things he hasn’t revealed.

G
Yup. And God knew that we wouldn’t choose him. So he prepared Jesus in advance, in order to bring his people to him again. Lol maybe.

It’s not surprising she can’t answer my question as to why god would bother with Jesus if he already knew that we were all going to sin and that some of us weren’t going to choose god.

G
God wants us to choose him.

Rayne
But free will means we can choose not to.

G
People still chose to rebel against God

Rayne
Why give free will then? Why not just stop free will and have everyone back to god and then no one would rebel. Much easier.

G
I don’t know completely, I can only theorise.

Rayne
No one could choose to sin therefore no sin.

G
I’d be totally fine with that.

If god gave us free will to choose him and he already knew who was going to choose him and who wasn’t – why bother?

I tried this line of questioning next:

Rayne
I could never really reconcile the whole “if I was created by a god in that gods image, it must have created me gay” yet the Christian god doesn’t want me to sin which means no sex so basically it’s me fighting my natural urges for other women.

G
I get that.

Rayne
Seems mean to create someone with desire only for them to not be able to act on them. Having to abstain? I’d rip my hair out in a week.

Rayne
Though out of all the crap in the world, why make rules around wanking and sex outside marriage? Surely there’s more pressing matters than a bit of self-love in the morning? Like the epidemic of TB in Africa

G
Well, I would posit that because he made us, he knows what’s best for us and he made sex for a married couple.

Rayne
Pretty sure my girlfriend would put her foot down on the whole “no sex” thing.

G
But sex in marriage is the best thing ever, in my humble opinion and the best thing to wait for. I understand that. But there’s not point abstaining unless you accept Christ as your saviour. Only Christ can bridge the abyss between us and God.

Rayne
There are plenty of gay Christians around who have partners, I’m sure they’ve reconciled their faith and sexuality.

G
So, it’s the behaviour that is the bad thing, not the attraction. I also know same sex attracted Christians. I know it’s not possible for you to control who you’re attracted to. Just like itsn’t not possible for me to control the fact that I’m attracted to other guys. but I can control my behaviour.

I suppose the question I’d put to you, is whether your partner is worth more than eternal salvation. And I’d put the same question to any of my gay friends, and also to my straight friends. Because if you’re a Christian, Christ should be your all, above everything in your life. If Daryl (husband) tried to make me choose him over Christ, Christ would win. Because He is more important than anything.

In order for me to have eternal salvation as a gay woman – I would need to break up my family by putting Jesus over my partner and never had sex or think about woman sexually (or masturbate) ever again. Seems like a lot of hard work and despair for an unprovable concept.

If we were to say that the god character created me with all my lesbian thoughts and desires – yet the attraction to woman wasn’t an issue, only the behaviour was, the god character has created me with desires that are acceptable but with the limitation that I can never ever act on them. Never experience love with another woman. I would have to go against the desires the god character gave me in order to be in an opposite sex marriage that would fill me with despair to get closer to him.

What a fuck wit.

G
We don’t really know what makes people gay. There are only theories. One is that there is a gay gene; another to is that one has certain experiences as a child – mum or dad was absent in one’s mind/uber controlling.

Either way, it doesn’t matter that you’re gay. It matters that you’re sinful. Just like it doesn’t matter that I’m straight, it matters that I’m sinful. I think Christians make the mistake of focussing on this one thing too much, when the real problem is much deeper: a lack of Jesus.

S
Without Jesus we’re screwed.

G
We’re screwed if we try it ourselves. Exactly.

G
But Jesus came to save us, because God didn’t want us to be condemned. So if we commit our lives to Christ, we will be saved and we will have hope.

But if the god character was all knowing – he would know that sending Jesus down to save us was not going to work because he would already know who would choose god and who wouldn’t. My head is starting to hurt now.

Rayne
It seems stupid. You could be a lifesaving doctor who is never greedy, gives to charities, is loving and devoted to their family – yet god will get cranky if they masturbate.

S
And yes. Sin is sin.

Rayne
So we’re all going to hell anyway?

G
It’s all about the heart, Rayne. If the doctor’s intent is not to glorify God, then that’s sin. We will go to hell if we don’t accept Jesus as our saviour. Because Jesus came, we needn’t try to be good to save ourselves: we can’t reach that level of perfection.

We Christians try to be good BECAUSE we’re saved – to make God smile, to give Him a good name. Let me clarify. If the Doctor is doing it FOR HIS OWN GLORY, then it’s sin. This might interest you too: http://st-eutychus.com/2013/born-thi…-to-the-flesh/

Rayne
So god doesn’t want us to do good deeds because it makes us feel good but he wants us to do good deeds to make god happy? That’s akin to taking instruction “Don’t do it because it’s good, do it for me”. The doctor wouldn’t doing it because it’s the right thing to do but for a third party.

We should be helping our fellow humans because it’s the right thing to do not just because god instructed us.

S
Indeed. But, we are incapable of doing that completely. Which is why we need Jesus.

Humans are incapable of doing good things completely. Okay so they are basically saying that they as people cannot do good things without Jesus. Fuck that is a terrifying thought.

G
I would query – is stuff good because we say it is? Or because God says it’s good, because He is the only one who can know, being that we are tainted by evil? I don’t deny it.

Rayne
Are you guys saying that if you didn’t know Jesus, then you couldn’t do good work because it’s a good and beneficial thing to do?

G
But the good we do is outweighed by the bad we do and the good we don’t. I don’t think that I, as a Christian, can do good either. The good that I do is good that God does, using me as His vessel.

Rayne
So humans can’t do good, it has to be god doing good through us?

G
Humans can’t do good, because we are not good. The good we do comes from God. So yes.

Humans can’t be good because we are not good” – Let that sink in for a moment.

Rayne
And humans are nothing but tainted by evil from the get go? What about babies? Babies can’t sin, they eat, poop and sleep.

G
I have to ask, Rayne: why are you asking us these things? Are you thinking about Christ? We are sinful from conception. http://www.cracked.com/article_18404…apable-of.html

Rayne
Because god seems illogical – why make a creature that has no hope? Why have children, why bring children into this world knowing they are sinners from the moment sperm finds an egg?

G
I used to think that babies were sinless. I’m the least willing person to ever consider they might be. But the fact is, we are. To be honest, I don’t know. I think God would be fully justified in destroying us and starting over. But he doesn’t! And that’s something I’m thankful for. I think the thing to remember is that we weren’t created to be sinful.

Take a moment to let the following quotes sink into your brain.

“We are sinful from conception.”
“I used to think that babies were sinless.”
“I think God would be fully justified in destroying us and starting over.”

Did anyone else notice – to back up her point about babies being born with sin, she linked me a fucking cracked.com article?

Rayne
Why would Christian parents choose to have children if their children are going to be labelled as sinners and have an uphill battle for the rest of their lives filled with guilt and shame because due to their very nature – they’ll never be good enough? How do you reconcile that thought? It’s incredibly depressing.

G
I don’t have an answer to that. I want babies because I love babies. But I know that my kids will probably not all choose Christ and that’s a terrifying thing, don’t get me wrong.

Rayne
Then they are doomed to hell.

G
But it’s all in God’s hands. He knows what He’s doing. He knows what I can and can’t handle. And all I can do is tell them about Christ, and the hope we have through Him, and pray that they accept it.

Yes, they are. Like I was. Like my family are. Like the majority of my friends are.

What have we learned so far: Babies aren’t sinless. Babies are doomed to hell. Therefore bringing babies into the world is dooming them to hell. Christian parents are jerks.

Though it is interesting that she states “Like I was” in regards to being doomed to hell. For someone who believes that everyone is a sinner, she certainly doesn’t seem to believe she is going to hell for it.

Rayne
Then there’s no point even continuing the species, we’re living in a cycle of dooming the next generation and every generation to hell

G
It is hopeless. It could change though.

Rayne
God is all knowing, he knows some won’t choose him and he allows it to happen. What a jerk.

G
Jesus made it possible for the whole world, if only it follows him, to spend eternity with him in heaven. I’d say, God sacrificed himself to bring us to him, and we reject him. We are the jerks.

Rayne
On some level god must like suffering, he made us with free will knowing we would sin and be doomed to hell.

G
Please read Matthew and Romans/Ephesians. I am limited in knowledge. God is not. Talk to him, let him talk to you. God will answer what you need him to.

Rayne
And yet he won’t or can’t do anything more than send Jesus to us. He could stop sin but either he chooses not to or he can’t. I think I’ll go have a think about it.

I channelled Epicurus for a little bit. Epicurus was a Greek philosopher credited for the following thought experiment:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. (And not all-powerful)
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. (Then he is not loving)
Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? (Then why does he allow bad things to happen?)

The only reply I got from the Christian woman is that she doesn’t have all the answers – fair point. No-one can really claim to have all the answers but to base a faith around “We’re all sinners and sick and only god can save us” is horrible.

If god can stop the sinning – then he doesn’t because either he can’t or he won’t. Which means he is either not all-powerful or he is a fucking jerk and allows suffering into the world.

If you like some of the things I say – feel free to add me to your RSS feed, comment or email me: rayne@insufferableintolerance.com. I now have a facebook page! Feel free to like my page by clicking here!

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5 Responses to Quotes from the mouths of Christians

  1. kiwi_n_aussie says:

    I think you need to find out more about what kind of Christians you are talking with. These ones seem to be Protestant Evangelical types or “Born Agains”.

    In which case hammering them with Old Testament quotes won’t really work. As the one of them said:

    ” outdated rules vs rules that still apply. Christianity is about our relationship with Jesus and how he has forgiven us. ”

    Jesus had a new story to tell, he more or less dispensed with the Old Testament.

    Keep in mind these lot aren’t really interested in any kind of philosophical or political discussion with you. Their single purpose is to convert you, that’s why they keep trying to get you to meet them in person, intuitively understanding it will be easier to manipulate you. Subjectively they are quiet sincere in their intentions, wanting to save you from Hell and bring you to God.

    Interestingly enough I have begun to think that the Political Correctness that is overtaking the Left has similarities to a cult/religion in the attitudes expressed – that they hold the truth and the light and are fighting evil and anyone who disagrees must be converted or condemned re: Gay Marriage.

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