“I used to think that babies were sinless. We are sinful from conception.”

Note: The title refers to two quotes by the same person featured within this transcript.

I’m currently engaged in a conversation with a religious woman on my Facebook, which has quickly turned into a conversation with a few different Christians. It was originally an attempt to understand the original posters thought on the glaring plot holes within the Bible. Suffice to say, I didn’t realise it was quickly going to turn into a four person tag-team conversion attempt.

It’s now turned into a Facebook messaging session. This is going to be quite a long post. I’m posting the transcript here so I can use my next post as an opportunity to analyse the transcript and their thought processes. Check out that post here.

Warning: May cause your eyes to melt in an attempt to save themselves.

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C
Christmas can sometimes feel very materialistic but let’s remember Christ and what he has done for us, today and every day.

Rayne
The whole concept of Jesus dying for our sins is very confusing to me. If he died for our sins, we should be forgiven. If we aren’t forgiven, then Jesus dying was a waste of time.

C
We are forgiven when we accept Jesus as lord and Saviour. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he dies, yet shall he live,

Rayne
But if we can only be forgiven once we accept Jesus – sending Jesus to die on the cross was futile because we still aren’t automatically forgiven. Why not just forgive everyone? Why send Jesus to die? Seems a bit mean. Also if we sin, why not just make us without sin? God is apparently all knowing – wouldn’t he know we would sin? If we were made the first time without the ability sin, we wouldn’t need to be forgiven because there’d be no sin.

C
It’s like being given a present. you can’t actually receive that present unless you accept it. same goes with god’s grace i believe. while we were still sinners he sent his one and only son (who is also god) to die for our sins so we can be reconciled to god. You can’t have something unless you accept it. its a personal decision. So people can’t force someone to accept it either. God made us with our own choices.

Rayne
Wait god and Jesus are the same person? God sent himself as a sacrifice for our sins? Or are there two gods?

C
The three in one. God, son, holy spirit. Three separate but also the same god. John 10:30 I and the Father are one. Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Philippians 2:5-7 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Acts 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Rayne
But how can god send a part of himself down to die? I’ve read the bible, it’s quite inconsistent with the empirical evidence science has discovered over the last century plus parts of it just make no sense. Like god telling Abraham to kill Isaac in order to show his faith and love – that’s abusive. Why would anyone need a test of love unless they were jealous or insecure?

Rayne
The bible has 10 commandments yet none of them talk about not raping or child abuse. One of them even talks about women as property. Not to mention all the nasty stuff in the bible like rape and child killing. One can only assume Adam and Eve populated the earth by incest because they were the first and only people on earth at that point, same with Noah – the human race could not have survived this long without genetic diversity.

C
why can god not send a part of himself down to earth to die for us? That in itself is love as he loved the world that he died for us to be at one with god. What parts of the bible are you saying are inconsistent with science? Science doesn’t disprove god or the existence of god. in this world we are presented with trials and tests all the time. We can’t deny that. This world is not perfect and we continuously face hardship in this life.

C
God told Abraham to kill Isaac in order to show his faith and love for god. That Abraham wasn’t holding anything above god. But god says stop as he was testing Abraham.

C
Anyway if you like I’m happy to meet with you and talk to you more in person about this. (1st request to meet).

C
I don’t think Facebook is a helpful place to talk about this, in person would be better. i can also give you a few books to read or look through if you like.

Rayne
Are we talking a tangible part of himself or a manifestation of himself in person form?

God is an untestable hypothesis, however parts of the bible are often contradictory and obviously not in line with what science has discovered today. Especially since it was written thousands of years ago and has translated into hundreds of languages, hundreds of times over.

1. In the story of creation: Day 1 – God created light and separated the light from the darkness, calling light “day” and darkness “night.” Yet he didn’t make any light producing objects until day 4 – how can he create light (day) and dark (night – when darkness is simply an absence of light) when he didn’t even make the sun yet?

2. Plants are made on day 3 yet for them to survive they need to photosynthesize – the sun wasn’t made til day 4 – why not make the sun first?

3. God had created all creatures to be herbivores – clearly throughout history this is not correct.

4. What about all the people who lived over 900? Even with medical intervention, the oldest person on record has been around 115 or so.

Seth lived 912 years.
Enos lived 905 years.
Cainan lived 910 years.
Mahalaleel lived 895 years.
Jared lived 962 years.
Enoch lived 365 years
When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech’s birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson.
Methuselah lived 969 years.
Lamech lived 777 years.

5. The earth doesn’t have enough water to flood the entire planet in the way the bible describes.

6. A stated by the Bible, to be 6500 years. Radiometric dating has shown us that the earth is closer to 4.5 billion years old.

7. Creationism doesn’t account for the empirical evidence of evolution nor the genetic diversity of today’s population.

Rayne
Can you give me some names of books? I’ll download to my iPad. The OT depicts god as a jealous insecure character – even going as far as demanding Abraham kill his son, just to see if Abraham would do it. Not cool at all. The whole hell thing creeps me out as well. I get that naughty children get punished but by torture?

G
The best book to read would be to start with is the bible. Start with Matthew, and then read Romans, or Ephesians if you want a slightly easier read. Then you could read The Reason for God by Tim Keller, and (I’m assuming you’re a scientist) God’s Undertaker by John Lennox, if you’re looking for an interaction with science in relation to the Bible. In terms of creationism, there aren’t many of us who are young earth creationists. Most are either old earth or theistic evolutionists.

Re punishment, it does seem over the top, doesn’t it? Let me ask you this, though, if you don’t mind – if Australia was at war with another country, and one of our most treasured heroes betrayed certain military secrets to the others guys, causing us to be conquered. What punishment should he receive? Our laws demand life imprisonment for treason. Is that unfair?

C
yeah the best book to start with would be the bible, reading through it in context. Then the other books G listed are quite helpful

Rayne
Fair point however torture for pretty much ever for the sin of disobeying god? Murder I get but not adultery (divorce is enough of a punishment it seems) I don’t recall seeing anyone condemning rape or child killing – there were a few stories where child killing was demanded and god sending bears to kill kids. Also lot gave his daughters to the townspeople to rape instead of the angels. I don’t get the no tattoos, eating shellfish – unless those rules aren’t applicable by today’s standards? How does reconcile those undated rules with the bible being the word of god? Wouldn’t not obeying all the rules outlined in the bible be going against the word of god? Or is more a set of guidelines?
How do you read the bible in context?

S
Shekk fish and tattoo ones were directed to Israel only to set them apart to be different from other countries at the time. Child killing falls under killing. Rape falls under both coveting and adultery. When lot gave his daughters (or whoever those girls are. I don’t think they were his daughters) he wasn’t doing the right thing, no one would claim that. As for reading in context, you need to read a large part of it to be able to read it in context. If you only read the Old Testament you won’t see that we are saved by grace. If you don’t read the Old Testament you won’t see what we are saved from, or why we need saving.

G
I was gonna say, Jesus fulfilled all the commands. That’s why we don’t have to follow them. But I don’t totally understand how it works. My hubby does though – mind if I involve D?

Rayne
S: I figured rape might have been classified under something different. I’m assuming adultery means sex in any fashion outside of being married? If so, does that mean gay men and women can have sexual relationships in countries that don’t recognise same sex marriage and does that extend to divorced people who haven’t remarried? (I’m not familiar with the definition of adultery except that it’s sort of the same as a cheater).

G
Also, a good book to read about bible reading is 1 to 1 Bible Reading by David Helm. It talks about ways to read the bible with another person (hence 1 to 1) but it can be extrapolated.

S
Also – outdated rules vs rules that still apply. Christianity is about our relationship with Jesus and how he has forgiven us. One could very easily say that there are no “rules” as such, with one exception that I’ll get to later. But there are still things that God wants us to do and things he wants us to not do. The relationship that we are to have with Jesus is one of a husband and wife. The only real “rule” as such is to love Jesus as one would love wife/husband.

For example
If your husband didn’t want you to cook roast lamb on a Tuesday for reason X (the actual reason is irrelevant) then if you had the deep love that we are called to have for each other and Indeed the love that he has for us, you wouldn’t cook roast lamb on Tuesdays.

G
So adultery means any sex outside of marriage, no matter who it is between. That includes rape.

Rayne
So I couldn’t have sex as a lesbian because in this country there is no recognition for same sex marriage however if we got married in New Zealand (because it has same sex marriage) my partner and I could? Does this mean single non married people have to abstain from sex?

G
I’m not sure that example is great, S. I’d be more inclined to use an example like not swearing if it offends someone, purely because of the self-sacrificial love Jesus showed by dying for us. But these things are hard to talk about well over Facebook (it’s hard to gauge tone in writing) so would you like to meet up and chat in person? (2nd time asking to meet).

J
Same sex relations has its own part in “the law” though its not listed in the 10 commandments. the 10 can be read as a summary.

S
It was the first thing I thought of G.
yes, no, yes.
From a Christian point of view sex is indeed only for people inside a marriage relationship. On the same note though, marriage is between man and woman, as God set out at creation. (This comes into a large thing about gender roles, marriage being illustration of God’s relationship with the church etc, and isn’t as simple as just “God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve like some people like to say)

G
Yes, to the single, non-married people (it’s extremely difficult…). In terms of same sex relations, God created man and woman to look after the world in a complementary relationship, with equally important but different roles. That’s where marriage comes from.

S
Josh in a way it also falls under adultery commandment.

G
(if you don’t mind me engaging in some damage control, this article may interest you: http://www.ordinarypastor.com/?p=13467)

J
Thanks S, I know that. There should have been an ‘also’ in my comment. That was intention by the summary bit. G did well at elaborating. It is hard to proof read on a phone that’s why I’m trying not to comment. Also my net on my phone is kind of patchy

G
I changed to my computer for that very reason
Also, this article: The Gay Community and That One Time Jesus Called Me the ‘N-word’ -
http://www.prodigalmagazine.com/jesu…me-the-n-word/

S
Yes I always hate putting large comments up by phone.

G
AND (sorry to spam you, I thought about this in depth not long ago and read stacks of blogs) THIS: The Copious Christian: All’s Fair In Food and Same Sex Marriage – http://copiouschristian.blogspot.com…-marriage.html

G
This last one is in regards to the OT laws.
Another thing, on hell: The Essential: Hell - http://www.challies.com/articles/the-essential-hell
I actually have stacks more where that came from – tell me what you want to read about and I’ll find something

J
Rayne, if you can it would be good for you to meet with C if you can. You seem to have a genuine interest and curiosity about the world and Christianity, I think having a conversation that way can make understanding quicker and even more thorough (3rd time asking to meet).

Rayne
I just don’t understand that if god has made me in his image with desires and attractions, how can I be considered a sinner? (By some of the more fundamentalist religious people)

G
May I suggest you read Romans chapter 5? – http://esv.literalword.com/?q=romans+5
The Bible explains it better than I can

Rayne
Obviously fundamentalists don’t speak for all religious people.

G
We can prolly try to clarify if you need.
No. Definitely not.
Mind if I add you as a friend? And can we change this to a private message? It’s getting long.

S
I consider myself fundamentalist though. And no. You’ll get the liberal Christians. The extremists. Etc. As for sinner even though made in his image, what Gabby linked Romans to explain is that we were made in his image originally (genesis) But when sin entered the world through the actions of Adam and eve we were all corrupted as a result.

Rayne
Ah gotcha.

J
Rayne the question you ask, “I just don’t understand that if god has made me in his image with desires and attractions, how can I be considered a sinner? (By some of the more fundamentalist religious people)”, it appears to me very loaded with some or a lot of emotional backing, Facebook makes it hard to define or answer an emotional question. If I’m wrong about it having emotional depth never mind. This is another reason I suggest meeting in person with someone as it’s a lot more difficult to have a tone/body language misunderstood which adds extra meaning to a statement.

Rayne
I’m more confused than anything else. You tend to get many different religious people calling you different things quoting different parts of the bible; it’s hard to get a clear and concise answer.

G
Think of a cancer – if left unchecked, it consumes the body. Sin is the same. When left unchecked sin consumed the world. God came in as a (wreaking ball) chemotherapy and surgical treatment. (sorry, couldn’t help it…)

Rayne
10 points for the Miley Cyrus reference.

G
Yeah. It is confusing. That’s why I tend to dislike the title fundamentalist.

S
Yes indeed. Lots of people like to say different things about what the Bible says. Don’t feel too picked on though if they call you a sinner. We are all sinners
Time for me to sleep. I’ll check in the morning

G
OK FB is being stupid and stopping making the comment is in order – can I start a private message?

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Authors note: There’s more! This is the private message. Again Rayne is me.

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G
So Rayne, where are you at with what we’ve been talking about?
I think an important thing to ask too – do you understand why it’s so important to us to tell you about Jesus?

Rayne
I’ve never been good with religion in general. The different faiths are definitely interesting, sometimes confusing.

G
lol
I get that.

Rayne
No idea, feel free to explain though

G
Sure.

Rayne
I’ve had a few Mormon kids from Utah around the neighbourhood lately. They are…happy. Very very happy. They also wanted to clean my kitchen

G
I’ve been playing with words for the past few minutes, but nothing is coming to me to make it sound poetic…
Basically Jesus came to save us from our sins. Without him, we’re condemned to hell. We as Christians don’t want others to have that fate, so we tell others in order to try to save them from that fate I’m a writer, not that you could tell from that paragraph…
Mmm. Mormons are not of the Christian faith. But that’s another conversation (which we can have if you’d like, but I got to go to be pretty soon… )
*bed

Rayne
Just say it how you would explain it to someone for the first time or how you were explained.

G
Haha, it changes every time, depending on their context and how well I know them.

G
What I said is the basic story. Usually I then elaborate as needed.
So, what elaboration is needed?

Rayne
It’s more in relation to the whole guidelines thing. If god is all knowing – I assume he would know we would sin. Why give us free will if we’re just going to sin? Why ask for tests of faith if he already knows the answer

G
Difficult question. This is a difficult topic. Most Christians don’t agree completely. And it gets into incredibly complex theology. There are two extremes, a complete lack of free will (we’re all robots) and God doesn’t have any say over our lives at all. I think these are both missing the point, and I think there’s a middle ground. So God is totally in control, but we are also totally responsible for our actions. Even the most experienced theologian has difficulty with this, for obvious reasons

G
This article explains it in a good way I think: The Irrationality of Calvinism – http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blo…-of-calvinism/
I am a child of Western thought. Therefore, I like to figure things out. If possible, I like to figure it all out. This causes problems between me and God sometimes, and I need to deal with it better. It’s a seriously difficult topic though (if I haven’t said it enough).

Rayne
Calvinism confuses me A LOT

G
Yeah

Rayne
Especially since there are so very many different denominations of Christian

G
I really wouldn’t recommend that you explore it until you’ve got the basics TOTALLY sorted
mhm

G
To tell you the truth, denominations frustrate me to no end. We’re not meant to be divided…

Rayne
It all seems like basically the same thing really except the few minor differences
Well not Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses they seem quite a lot different

G
but I found that what I’d been taught by them was not actually what Jesus said. when I came to uni I met my husband and began to read the bible myself and discovered who Jesus is for myself.
Yeah. They are generally not considered to be Christians by anyone by them, because they deny certain important doctrines, like the trinity and salvation by grace.

Rayne
I remember being scared in mass when I was younger – the priest was talking about Jesus taking us all home. I thought I was going to get kidnapped.

G
Usually in the denominations, it is fairly minor disagreements. There are some that are less biblical though. But that’s what happens when sinful people are put in charge of stuff.
urg, I really hate ambiguous language like that. What a horrible thing.

Rayne
Yeah I cried. I was 7.

G
We usually call it “Christianese” and try to avoid it…
(am I avoiding it enough? I hope I’m not confusing you.)

Rayne
What happens to someone who commits sin? Can you ask for forgiveness and be forgiven?

G
Yes. God forgives anyone who repents, so long as their repentance is true.
One thing I should have mentioned is that there is nothing that we can do to be saved.
Nothing.
Zilch.

Rayne
I can see people abusing that system though – like the paedophile priests who hurt kids and ask forgiveness but say they “slipped up” and do it again
What’s the point though? Why can’t we be saved? All that effort for nothing?

G
Absolutely. But that’s a sign of non-repentance. True repentance is asking for forgiveness and then changing one’s behaviour accordingly.
This is allowing, of course for the fact that we aren’t perfect and will stuff up constantly.
It’s all about our heart intent.
So, technically we can get to Go but being good. But the only way to do that is to keep every single one of God’s laws.
Man, my spelling is bad…
*God
But since obviously we are not perfect, and don’t keep the laws, we are essentially screwed.

Rayne
Though if we can’t be saved – why bother trying not to sin? (Apart from manmade laws). We can try but in the end it’s be futile anyway because as humans we do mess up.

G
I agree.
No point trying to work if there’s no way we can ever get there.

Rayne
What stops people from sinning if we’re all screwed anyway?

G
But that’s where Jesus comes in.
God didn’t want us to be separated from him. He made us to be with him.

Rayne
People still on some level must do good things and refrain from harmful things or else the world would be chaos.
The world isn’t complete chaos, so some sort of internal policing must be happening

G
But since God is just and can’t ignore our crimes, and we can’t be perfect at all, God came as Jesus and took the punishment we deserve. Jesus never rebelled against his Father, and lived not only to the letter of the law, but to the spirit, heart level. He was the only one NOT deserving of punishment, and yet he sacrificed himself so that we wouldn’t have to die.
I would say that the world is in chaos.
wars everywhere, children starving to death, abuse

Rayne
The world isn’t the utopia it should be

G
Yes.
And that’s what I call chaos. The world should be in harmony, totally balanced.
But it’s not.

Rayne
We’re complex creatures, that may never happen

G
And that’s due to sin. But because Jesus died, one day we can experience the perfection we were made for.

Rayne
It won’t happen with the different religions killing each other – can there even be a resolution between the different faiths?

G
This world isn’t going to last forever. One day Jesus will return on the clouds, to judge the world and destroy it. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth, and sin will be destroyed.
Short answer, no.

Rayne
Wipe us all out and start again? Didn’t he already do that? Next time try not giving us free will. It never seems to turn out well.

G
Because we contradict each other completely, we won’t be able to coexist.
He’s not gonna wipe us all out. (I totally agree, though lol)

Rayne
I would have thought god would have known how bad it would get

G
Yes. He did. Jesus was planned from before the universe was created. Think of it this way.

Rayne
If he could already tell the end result, why create us in the first place, to see if he could?
If you know the end result, why bother? It’s like watching the Titanic, we all know the ship sinks

G
You have a child. You love him/her incredibly. But you know that he/she only loves you because they were told to. That’s particularly horrible, so you decide to let your child choose to love you or not.
That doesn’t make a stack of sense…

Rayne
But you’d already know if your kid chooses to love you or not.

G
I actually don’t know the answer to that question. There are some things he hasn’t revealed.

Rayne
Too busy shaking his head at Mormons I suppose

G
Yup. And God knew that we wouldn’t choose him. So he prepared Jesus in advance, in order to bring his people to him again. Lol maybe

Rayne
That didn’t work out so well.

G
Nope
Wait, what do you mean?

Rayne
You can create something and not know why it’s not working properly but then again, god is meant to be all knowing. I meant about using Jesus to get us closer to him, people still rebelled and are sinning

G
ok. I see. It’s all about the choosing thing.

Rayne
So that plan didn’t work out to well for everyone

G
God wants us to choose him.

Rayne
But free will means we can choose not to

G
People still chose to rebel against God

Rayne
Why give free will then? Why not just stop free will and have everyone back to god and then no one would rebel. Much easier

G
I don’t know completely, I can only theorise.

Rayne
No one could choose to sin therefore no sin.

G
I’d be totally fine with that.

Rayne
God likes making it hard on himself?

G
no pain, no sadness.

Rayne
The downside – we’d have no freedom

G
My theory is that he wants us to choose him. Do we really have freedom here?

Rayne
He’s making it hard on himself though

G
Yes.

Rayne
We have limits in order to maintain civilisation so we don’t stupid ourselves out of existence

G
I don’t disagree! I suppose it depends on your definition of freedom.

Rayne
I could never really reconcile the whole “if I was created by a god in that gods image, it must have created me gay” yet the Christian god doesn’t want me to sin which means no sex so basically it’s me fighting my natural urges for other women.

G
I get that.

Rayne
Seems mean to create someone with desire only for them to not be able to act on them. Having to abstain? I’d rip my hair out in a week.

G
Yeah

Rayne
Unless god allows masturbation

G
I totally get that Masturbation is a difficult thing too.. I know some people that say it’s ok, as long as you don’t think of anyone while doing it.

Rayne
Though the bible was written thousands of years ago, I get the need for sex only as procreation back then, much less people Now, not so much. Not with 7 billion people

G
Personally, I have stopped doing it, as my conscience doesn’t allow it, but if you can without thinking of anyone I think its ok.
I would disagree.
The Greek culture was far, far more sexually open than us. It was Christianity that made the Western culture so much less so.

Rayne
The earth can’t handle many more people, if some people stopped having sex purely for procreation – it’s be less of a strain on our resources. I do wonder, why is god so preoccupied with sexual matters?

G
I would disagree there too – I’ve read studies that say that the population will stagnate at 10 bil and then start to decline. People aren’t replacing themselves anymore. But that’s another topic Abstinence is hard. I’m not gonna deny it.

Rayne
I’d hope for a few less people unless we can terraform other planets, we’ll run out of natural resources at some point.

Rayne
Though out of all the crap in the world, why make rules around wanking and sex outside marriage?

G
I think that sex forms us, so it makes total sense. One can either be really damaged or fulfilled by it.

Rayne
True but marrying the wrong person can do that as well.

G
Yes I’d agree, if they are abusive.
I think marriage can last if both parties are willing to work at it. I don’t believe in the soulmate thing. From what I’ve observed, though, if the partner is abusive they usually abuse sex too. I’ve heard that sex is 10% of a good marriage, and 90% of a bad marriage.

Rayne
True. Which is why divorce is a great thing, you can away from them Marriages based on sex won’t last If you don’t have anything else in common with your partner – the relationship won’t get far. Though if it’s abusive, a divorce means getting away from the abuser psychically and legally

G
I dunno, maybe I made that saying up… my husband is saying he’s never heard of it and I think it’s tragic that it has to be that way

Rayne
Think of it this way, if the marriage is bad in term of communication and lack of interests – all you’ve got together is sex.

G
yes. And one gets bored after a while lol. I think we got off track…
I’m losing track of what we’re talking about lol

Rayne
We’re trying to figure out why god is invested in masturbation and sex

G
Oh yeahhhhh. Right

Rayne
Surely there’s more pressing matters than a bit of self-love in the morning? Like the epidemic of TB in Africa

G
Well, I would posit that because he made us, he knows what’s best for us and he made sex for a married couple.

Rayne
I get that sex is fun or else we wouldn’t do it
I thought why make it fun, it encourages people to sin but if sex is boring – no one would do it

G
Sex is most definitly fun. Mmm. There’s a book that you might be interested in

Rayne
It is, even if I sin when I do it. I’m a large fan of books

G
It’s called Teen Sex By The Book (ignore the teen, I read it and it’s great for adults too) by Dr Patrician Weerakoon. Pure Flesh by Greg and Amelia Clark. Books are awesome!

Rayne
Books are pretty cool. I need more bookshelves

G
Dr Weerakoon is awesome. She’s so funny, and really knowledgeable. she’s a sexologist. I hear you. I wish I had more time to read. I think anything I say will not be up to scratch with what those books say.

Rayne
I don’t think I could do it, give up sex I mean. I have no willpower

G
I really get that. I am addicted to pornography. Believe me, abstinence is HARDDDD

Rayne
I’m not a big fan of porn, it’s just the same old stuff. It depends on your definition of addiction. Pretty sure my girlfriend would put her foot down on the whole “no sex” thing

G
But sex in marriage is the best thing ever, in my humble opinion and the best thing to wait for.
I can’t have any internet device unblocked or I’ll look at porn. It’s a bad thing, definitely an addiction
wreaked havok on my life
I understand that. But there’s not point abstaining unless you accept Christ as your saviour.
only.  Christ can bridge the abyss between us and God.

Rayne
There are plenty of gay Christians around who have partners, I’m sure they’ve reconciled their faith and sexuality

G
So, it’s the behaviour that is the bad thing, not the attraction. I also know same sex attracted Christians. I know it’s not possible for you to control who you’re attracted to. Just like itsn’t not possible for me to control the fact that I’m attracted to other guys. but I can control my behaviour.

I suppose the question I’d put to you , is whether your partner is worth more than eternal salvation. And I’d put the same question to any of my gay friends, and also to my straight friends. Because if you’re a Christian, Christ should be your all, above everything in your life. If my husband tried to make me choose him over Christ, Christ would win. Because He is more important than anything.

G
Mhm.
I wonder whether we’re gonna get anywhere after now. It’s pretty late. It might be best for you to read the stuff we’ve recommended (or some of it) and ask questions as needed. I feel like we’ve come against a wallish here.

Rayne
It is midnight after all. Get some sleep. It’s more holidays tomorrow Sleep in!

G
Very few good conversations happen after 12, or even 10. I think my brain starts to shut down and I start jabbering on and on.
I hope I haven’t offended you with anything I’ve said
I really want you to know Christ. And so I find it difficult to pace myself sometimes.
Good night, sleep well, and I hope you can think through this clearly. It may seem weird, but I’m praying for you.

Rayne
I can barely read the keyboard. Think I’ll make a tea and head to bed. Have a good sleep

And it continues:

S
Interesting conversation to wake up to.
Some things I’m throw in.
God isn’t the one that’s hung up on sex all the time; he’s hung up on SIN, no matter what sin it is. It’s humans that get caught up on sex and quite often we sin when we are telling people that they shouldn’t be having sex because it’s sinning.
Regarding being made Gay, and having to abstain etc, that’s a big long discussion that I think others would be better to talk to. But I would say that you weren’t made Gay, but you were made sinful and that’s just how sin has come out in your life. The struggle you would have are shared by others out there though

Rayne
So being born to straight parents and only being around straight people then coming out at 16 made me gay? My sexuality isn’t something I’ve struggled with, not once in the last decade of being out of the closet.

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The last instalment (in which I channel Epicurus). WARNING: May make you depressed as hell.

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S
That’s not for me to say. Not really for anyone to say “this circumstance made you Gay” (why does my phone capitalize Gay?)

G
We don’t really know what makes people gay. There are only theories. One is that there is a gay gene; another to is that one has certain experiences as a child – mum or dad was absent in one’s mind/uber controlling. Either way, it doesn’t matter that you’re gay. It matters that you’re sinful. Just like it doesn’t matter that I’m straight, it matters that I’m sinful. I think Christians make the mistake of focussing on this one thing too much, when the real problem is much deeper: a lack of Jesus.

Rayne
I have no idea – mine doesn’t -shrug- I’ve never struggled with it. I have a great life with my partner. I’m trying to figure out how Christian gays reconcile their life and faith. And yet if we’re screwed, there’s really no point because – we’re all screwed anyway. You said it yourself.

S
Without Jesus we’re screwed

G
We’re screwed if we try it ourselves. Exactly.

S
Regarding Gay Christians. They take several routes. Some claim the bible allows it. Some live a double life. Some struggle with it. Some find ways past it

G
But Jesus came to save us, because God didn’t want us to be condemned. So if we commit our lives to Christ, we will be saved and we will have hope. I have some testimonies of some gay Christians I can link if it would help.

Rayne
That might

G
No worries. Let me change to my computer

Rayne
But surely people can do good beneficial things without the threat of not being saved? Some people shouldn’t need a carrot dangling in front of their face to be good?

S
That is correct

G
Here’s the articles I was talking about: http://www.thetwocities.com/practica…ot-really-gay/
Another link: http://www.e-n.org.uk/6028-A-battle-I-face.htm

Rayne
It seems stupid. You could be a lifesaving doctor who is never greedy, gives to charities, is loving and devoted to their family – yet god will get cranky if they masturbate.

S
And yes. Sin is sin.

Rayne
So we’re all going to hell anyway?

G
It’s all about the heart, Rayne. If the doctor’s intent is not to glorify God, then that’s sin. We will go to hell if we don’t accept Jesus as our saviour. Because Jesus came, we needn’t try to be good to save ourselves: we can’t reach that level of perfection. We Christians try to be good BECAUSE we’re saved – to make God smile, to give Him a good name. Let me clarify. If the Doctor is doing it FOR HIS OWN GLORY, then it’s sin. This might interest you too: http://st-eutychus.com/2013/born-thi…-to-the-flesh/

Rayne
So god doesn’t want us to do good deeds because it makes us feel good but he wants us to do good deeds to make god happy? That’s akin to taking instruction “Don’t do it because it’s good, do it for me”. The doctor wouldn’t doing it because it’s the right thing to do but for a third party.
We should be helping our fellow humans because it’s the right thing to do not just because god instructed us.

S
Indeed. But, we are incapable of doing that completely. Which is why we need Jesus.

Rayne
We as humans can’t do good things because they are good so we need a dangly carrot over out heads? There are tons of nonreligious charities and nonreligious people that do good work

G
I would query – is stuff good because we say it is? Or because God says it’s good, because He is the only one who can know, being that we are tainted by evil? I don’t deny it.

Rayne
Are you guys saying that if you didn’t know Jesus, then you couldn’t do good work because it’s a good and beneficial thing to do?

G
But the good we do is outweighed by the bad we do and the good we don’t.
I don’t think that I, as a Christian, can do good either.
The good that I do is good that God does, using me as His vessel.

Rayne
So humans can’t do good, it has to be god doing good through us?

G
Humans can’t do good, because we are not good. The good we do comes from God. So yes.

Rayne
And humans are nothing but tainted by evil from the get go? What about babies? Babies can’t sin, they eat, poop and sleep.

G
I have to ask, Rayne: why are you asking us these things? Are you thinking about Christ?
We are sinful from conception. http://www.cracked.com/article_18404…apable-of.html

Rayne
because god seems illogical – why make a creature that has no hope? Why have children, why bring children into this world knowing they are sinners from the moment sperm finds an egg?

G
I used to think that babies were sinless. I’m the least willing person to ever consider they might be. But the fact is, we are. To be honest, I don’t know.
I think God would be fully justified in destroying us and starting over. But he doesn’t! And that’s something I’m thankful for. I think the thing to remember is that we weren’t created to be sinful.

Rayne
There seems to be no point if it’s all an uphill battle to not sin. God was very intelligent when ge create sin, he’s making his creatures suffer in guilt and victim blaming us even though he created sin and desire and temptation. Wasn’t very intelligent.

G
We were created to be with God, but then Satan came in and stuffed it, ensuring that the rest of the world was stuffed.

Rayne
So it’s not our fault then

G
So Satan tempts us, but we can choose to ignore it. The problem is that we don’t.
I think you need to read the stuff we’ve told you about, Ness. A bigger picture is better than what we’re giving you.

Rayne
Why would Christian parents choose to have children if their children are going to be labelled as sinners and have an uphill battle for the rest of their lives filled with guilt and shame because due to their very nature – they’ll never be good enough?
How do you reconcile that thought? Its incredibly depressing

G
I don’t have an answer to that. I want babies because I love babies. But I know that my kids will probably not all choose Christ and that’s a terrifying thing, don’t get me wrong.

Rayne
Then they are doomed to hell.

G
But it’s all in God’s hands. He knows what He’s doing. He knows what I can and can’t handle. And all I can do is tell them about Christ, and the hope we have through Him, and pray that they accept it.
Yes, they are.
Like I was.
Like my family are.
Like the majority of my friends are.

Rayne
Then there’s no point even continuing the species, we’re living in a cycle of dooming the next generation and every generation to hell

G
It is hopeless.
It could change though.

Rayne
God is all knowing, he knows some won’t choose him and he allows it to happen. What a jerk.

G
Jesus made it possible for the whole world, if only it follows him, to spend eternity with him in heaven. I’d say, God sacrificed himself to bring us to him, and we reject him. We are the jerks.

Rayne
On some level god must like suffering, he made us with free will knowing we would sin and be doomed to hell.

G
Please read Matthew and Romans/Ephesians.
I am limited in knowledge. God is not. Talk to him, let him talk to you. God will answer what you need him to.

Rayne
And yet he won’t or can’t do anything more than send Jesus to us. He could stop sin but either he chooses not to or he can’t. I think I’ll go have a think about it.

G
Yep. As I said, my knowledge is limited. All I can do is point you to God and the Bible. That’s where you’ll get your answers. Another couple books that might help: How Long O Lord, but Don Carson, and If I Were God I’d End All Pain, by John Dickson (I think) http://www.reformation21.org/articles/what-is-evil.php

Rayne
I’m going to head off to do some housework

G
No worries. Talk to God. Let him talk to you. We’re here to answer any questions we can, but only God can answer them all.

S
Well I’m back. Just gonna throw it in their – God made us to have companionship with him. He knew that we would doom ourselves. That is why he sent Jesus, to offer us a way out. He doesn’t want to force us to take the way out though, as the companionship of someone that is forced to be your friend isn’t as good as that of someone who chooses to be your friend. God offers us the choice of living how we want and dooming ourselves to hell. Or living how he wants (well trying to. We’re human and will fail after all) and have eternal companionship with him.

He chooses not to stop sin, yet, as it takes away the choice to serve him that we currently have. And when you have no choice but to serve someone, are you really serving them?

Authors note: At that point I ended the conversation. It was getting far too depressing. Stay tuned for my next post examining the thought processes of the above Christians.

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4 Comments

  1. Not only the Abraham baby sacrifice sadistic test, but what’s with the betting on Job? YHWH was a gambler? Maybe he does play dice with the universe?

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    1
  2. Further to the point, why did the god character gamble if he is all knowing? He already has the answer! That’s cheating and isn’t gambling a sin anyway?

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    2

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